Comments on: Health Care, Fiddle Sticks, and Ann Coulter (Part Two) http://www.steamd.net/2009/09/health-care-fiddle-sticks-and-ann-coulter-part-two.html Rants, raves, and other geeky nonsense Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:51:50 +0000 hourly 1 By: Christine http://www.steamd.net/2009/09/health-care-fiddle-sticks-and-ann-coulter-part-two.html/comment-page-1#comment-728 Christine Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:46:54 +0000 http://www.steamd.net/?p=921#comment-728 Thank you. I do try and keep emotion out of a debate/comments online as much as humanly possible. Funny thing... I am much better at it anonymously than I am in person. ;o) I agree with you that there are women out there who have abortions for no better reason than she didn't want a girl. Those disgusting things(in my opinion) happen. But they are a tiny percentage. It's equivalent to lumping all those on welfare into the same category, or criminals, or Republicans(LOL!). And I admit, I have often found myself doing such lumping. But, I also more often than not, err on the side of compassion. And I will keep erring on the side of compassion. It keeps me human and it keeps me tolerant. I'd much rather be compassionate and wrong on occasion than assume the worst from everyone. That is, lumping those women who have abortions for reasons that make sense to them, that seem like the right thing to do, together with those who make that same decision for reasons I abhor... and assuming they are ALL either white-trash, minorities, poor, uneducated, stupid, or a combination thereof. I will continue to believe in the whole goodness of people... even when proven wrong. I know what you mean about people who can't seem to form articulate thought beyond the... "You're wrong and I'm right." Who are wholly wrapped in the emotion and feelings of their convictions without giving it deeper thought and analysis for fear of... well... I believe for fear of losing what they think they must cling to. Some ideal. Some form of themselves, that if they give it up for something else they lose who they are. For me... I see it as a gain. ;o) I see it as enlightenment. I see it as tentatively holding something dear without fear of losing that same ideal for something new, something better, something not thought of before. I see it as growth. I see it as wisdom. I see it as a journey. Thank you. I do try and keep emotion out of a debate/comments online as much as humanly possible. Funny thing… I am much better at it anonymously than I am in person. ;o)

I agree with you that there are women out there who have abortions for no better reason than she didn’t want a girl. Those disgusting things(in my opinion) happen. But they are a tiny percentage. It’s equivalent to lumping all those on welfare into the same category, or criminals, or Republicans(LOL!). And I admit, I have often found myself doing such lumping. But, I also more often than not, err on the side of compassion. And I will keep erring on the side of compassion. It keeps me human and it keeps me tolerant. I’d much rather be compassionate and wrong on occasion than assume the worst from everyone. That is, lumping those women who have abortions for reasons that make sense to them, that seem like the right thing to do, together with those who make that same decision for reasons I abhor… and assuming they are ALL either white-trash, minorities, poor, uneducated, stupid, or a combination thereof. I will continue to believe in the whole goodness of people… even when proven wrong.

I know what you mean about people who can’t seem to form articulate thought beyond the… “You’re wrong and I’m right.” Who are wholly wrapped in the emotion and feelings of their convictions without giving it deeper thought and analysis for fear of… well… I believe for fear of losing what they think they must cling to. Some ideal. Some form of themselves, that if they give it up for something else they lose who they are. For me… I see it as a gain. ;o) I see it as enlightenment. I see it as tentatively holding something dear without fear of losing that same ideal for something new, something better, something not thought of before. I see it as growth. I see it as wisdom. I see it as a journey.

]]> By: jwhitfield http://www.steamd.net/2009/09/health-care-fiddle-sticks-and-ann-coulter-part-two.html/comment-page-1#comment-723 jwhitfield Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:20:10 +0000 http://www.steamd.net/?p=921#comment-723 You make some very valid and good points here. Thanks for writing a well thought-out, well written response. I sure wish others would do the same. Unfortunately, a lot of folks just regurgitate their so-called values and don't put forth any logical, reasonable thought that helps support their principles. Based on your response, I would say that I'm not 100% against any insurance company covering the cost of an abortion. I think that decision is up to the patient, doctor, and insurance company. You brought up a lot of points that make total sense. No doubt there are times when a would-be mother might request an abortion under certain circumstances that go outside the obvious ones (ie. rape, incest, life of mother/child). In these cases, it's really up to all parties involved to sit down and look at the situation and determine what's the best course of action. Yes, people make mistakes everyday and I'll agree that people shouldn't have to pay for each and every mistake they make. However, from personal experience there are those who continually make the same mistakes and just don't seem to learn from them. I knew a girl once who used to bounce from guy to guy to guy and kept getting pregnant. She had multiple abortions, one of which I helped her by partially paying for and driving her down the clinic (FYI, I didn't get her pregnant. I was just helping her out.). This is one of those situations where it was her own mistake and thus she should pay for it. I guess what I'm saying is that I agree that there are extenuating circumstances but it really depends on the situation. :) You make some very valid and good points here. Thanks for writing a well thought-out, well written response. I sure wish others would do the same. Unfortunately, a lot of folks just regurgitate their so-called values and don’t put forth any logical, reasonable thought that helps support their principles.

Based on your response, I would say that I’m not 100% against any insurance company covering the cost of an abortion. I think that decision is up to the patient, doctor, and insurance company. You brought up a lot of points that make total sense. No doubt there are times when a would-be mother might request an abortion under certain circumstances that go outside the obvious ones (ie. rape, incest, life of mother/child). In these cases, it’s really up to all parties involved to sit down and look at the situation and determine what’s the best course of action.

Yes, people make mistakes everyday and I’ll agree that people shouldn’t have to pay for each and every mistake they make. However, from personal experience there are those who continually make the same mistakes and just don’t seem to learn from them. I knew a girl once who used to bounce from guy to guy to guy and kept getting pregnant. She had multiple abortions, one of which I helped her by partially paying for and driving her down the clinic (FYI, I didn’t get her pregnant. I was just helping her out.). This is one of those situations where it was her own mistake and thus she should pay for it.

I guess what I’m saying is that I agree that there are extenuating circumstances but it really depends on the situation. :)

]]> By: Christine http://www.steamd.net/2009/09/health-care-fiddle-sticks-and-ann-coulter-part-two.html/comment-page-1#comment-722 Christine Sat, 26 Sep 2009 11:55:02 +0000 http://www.steamd.net/?p=921#comment-722 "I just don’t think it’s fair to ask an insurance company to cover the bill for a mistake." - So does this mean *any* mistake? Because I'll tell you, people make stupid mistakes every day that have serious physical consequences, yet insurance picks up the tab. What about people who choose NOT to wear a helmet? Not to wear a seatbelt? Not use proper gloves when working with dangerous things? Not drive the speed limit. Not eat the right foods. Not exercise in order to stay fit and healthy. What about those who smoke? Who drink? I know a few of these aren't one time mistakes... but most certainly ARE mistakes, in my opinion. Power tools comes to mind here with the one time mistakes that end up taking loads of men to the emergency room every day. What's the difference between a mistake and an accident? You see, we can banter back and forth on what is and isn't a mistake or an accident. I can give you examples of mistakes made every day by otherwise regular average people. I could give you compelling evidence that women aren't the ONLY ones who make mistakes. But unfortunately, they are the ones who are mostly penalized for their mistakes. And I'll ask you something else, what's morally right... a mother of 4 who is single, working 2 jobs to provide for her children, who made a "mistake" and got pregnant(although it takes TWO, we seem to forget that), who then chooses to abort for the welfare of her other children. Or that same woman keeping the pregnancy, putting an even greater strain on everyone involved, digging herself an even deeper hole, who has to then be given even more money by the state, less food on the table, live in a place too small, so on and so forth. Which is more morally right? And yet that same woman is vilified every day for making a most difficult choice, as if it were an after thought. I assure you it is not. People do what we would consider to be stupid things every day. People make mistakes every day. Accidents happen. Insurance companies can pick up the tab for ALL of them? No matter the cost? Yet... can say no to this one? Did you have a chance to look up the statistics on abortions? That is, the percentage of them done in the first 6 weeks? First 9 weeks? It's quite telling. Very few are left to the 12 week mark. And sometimes, it's extremely difficult for a woman to find a clinic that will perform an abortion... which eats away at the time. If a woman had the choice and the means to terminate a pregnancy within a couple of weeks, no doubt even more would. The statistics you gave are hardly very big in the scheme of abortions. 5 out of 50 states restrict abortions being covered on private health insurance. I have Cigna health insurance. They cover abortions. Although admittedly, if I were in need of an abortion, I highly doubt I'd file an insurance claim(but I can afford not to) which would then become public knowledge... with the ability of it being used against me somehow in the future from another insurance company. And I must add that the fact I have to even worry about such backlash is utterly disgusting. Your personal feelings about restricting the access of abortions... that is, a *legal* procedure... is of no consequence. And in the long list of medical procedures done very day, all legal, some cosmetic, most not, I would not be hard-pressed to find some I feel insurance should NOT pay for. But they are. They are because people have the "right" to medical procedures that affect their lives and their health. People do stupid things. People make mistakes. Most are one-time occurrences... yet you are singling out women... and women only. “I just don’t think it’s fair to ask an insurance company to cover the bill for a mistake.” – So does this mean *any* mistake? Because I’ll tell you, people make stupid mistakes every day that have serious physical consequences, yet insurance picks up the tab. What about people who choose NOT to wear a helmet? Not to wear a seatbelt? Not use proper gloves when working with dangerous things? Not drive the speed limit. Not eat the right foods. Not exercise in order to stay fit and healthy. What about those who smoke? Who drink? I know a few of these aren’t one time mistakes… but most certainly ARE mistakes, in my opinion. Power tools comes to mind here with the one time mistakes that end up taking loads of men to the emergency room every day. What’s the difference between a mistake and an accident? You see, we can banter back and forth on what is and isn’t a mistake or an accident. I can give you examples of mistakes made every day by otherwise regular average people. I could give you compelling evidence that women aren’t the ONLY ones who make mistakes. But unfortunately, they are the ones who are mostly penalized for their mistakes. And I’ll ask you something else, what’s morally right… a mother of 4 who is single, working 2 jobs to provide for her children, who made a “mistake” and got pregnant(although it takes TWO, we seem to forget that), who then chooses to abort for the welfare of her other children. Or that same woman keeping the pregnancy, putting an even greater strain on everyone involved, digging herself an even deeper hole, who has to then be given even more money by the state, less food on the table, live in a place too small, so on and so forth. Which is more morally right? And yet that same woman is vilified every day for making a most difficult choice, as if it were an after thought. I assure you it is not.

People do what we would consider to be stupid things every day. People make mistakes every day. Accidents happen. Insurance companies can pick up the tab for ALL of them? No matter the cost? Yet… can say no to this one?

Did you have a chance to look up the statistics on abortions? That is, the percentage of them done in the first 6 weeks? First 9 weeks? It’s quite telling. Very few are left to the 12 week mark. And sometimes, it’s extremely difficult for a woman to find a clinic that will perform an abortion… which eats away at the time. If a woman had the choice and the means to terminate a pregnancy within a couple of weeks, no doubt even more would. The statistics you gave are hardly very big in the scheme of abortions. 5 out of 50 states restrict abortions being covered on private health insurance.

I have Cigna health insurance. They cover abortions.
Although admittedly, if I were in need of an abortion, I highly doubt I’d file an insurance claim(but I can afford not to) which would then become public knowledge… with the ability of it being used against me somehow in the future from another insurance company. And I must add that the fact I have to even worry about such backlash is utterly disgusting.

Your personal feelings about restricting the access of abortions… that is, a *legal* procedure… is of no consequence. And in the long list of medical procedures done very day, all legal, some cosmetic, most not, I would not be hard-pressed to find some I feel insurance should NOT pay for. But they are. They are because people have the “right” to medical procedures that affect their lives and their health. People do stupid things. People make mistakes. Most are one-time occurrences… yet you are singling out women… and women only.

]]> By: jwhitfield http://www.steamd.net/2009/09/health-care-fiddle-sticks-and-ann-coulter-part-two.html/comment-page-1#comment-719 jwhitfield Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:35:51 +0000 http://www.steamd.net/?p=921#comment-719 Thanks, Christine! Much appreciated! It's nice to receive comments like this. Certainly motivates me to write more. Ann has a few more parts to her series so I'll definitely will be following up on them very soon. :) Regarding the abortion issue, I found a document online that talks about <a href="http://www.steamd.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/spib_RICA.pdf" rel="nofollow">Restricting Insurance Coverage of Abortion</a>. Here are the highlights: <ul> <li>5 states restrict insurance coverage of abortion in private insurance plans; 4 limit coverage to cases when the woman’s life is endangered; 1 limits coverage to life endangerment, rape and incest. Additional abortion coverage is permitted only through purchase of an additional rider and payment of an additional premium.</li> <li>12 states restrict abortion coverage in insurance plans for public employees. <ul> <li>3 of the states provide abortion coverage only when the woman’s life is endangered.</li> <li>7 of the states, in addition to offering coverage to save the woman’s life, provide coverage to protect the woman’s health or in cases of rape, incest or fetal abnormality.</li> <li>2 of the states flatly prohibit any insurance coverage of abortion for public employees.</li> </ul> </li> </ul> What this tells me is that you can't just walk into a clinic, get an abortion, and expect your health insurance company to pick up the tab. It varies by state and insurance company. Not only that but it's pretty restrictive. I just don't think it's fair to ask an insurance company to cover the bill for a mistake. Other than that, there are legitimate medical reasons for an abortion and no one (the government and/or insurance companies) should get in the way of allowing you and your doctor to make that sort of decision. Personally, I feel that no insurance company should pick up the tab except in cases when the mother and/or child's life is at risk, severe abnormalities, or in cases of rape/incest. Those are highly legitimate reasons regardless of what side of the morality bench you're on. Whenever anyone asks me whether I'm pro-life or pro-choice, I say that I'm both. I'm pro-life in the fact that if you make a mistake then you should take responsibility. I'm also pro-life from the perspective that if you wait over three months to make up your mind to have an abortion then that is three months too late. However, I'm pro-choice in the fact that I believe that it should be every woman's right to choice what happens to their body. No one should be forced into believing anything as far as what's the moral right thing to do. As stated above, there are legitimate reasons for abortion. If my wife was to get raped tomorrow and got pregnant as a result you bet your ass I will allow her to have an abortion if she so chooses. I guess my point is that while I have my own beliefs on the moral implications of abortion, I'm not too keen on stuffing those beliefs down other people's throats. Thanks, Christine! Much appreciated! It’s nice to receive comments like this. Certainly motivates me to write more. Ann has a few more parts to her series so I’ll definitely will be following up on them very soon. :)

Regarding the abortion issue, I found a document online that talks about Restricting Insurance Coverage of Abortion. Here are the highlights:

  • 5 states restrict insurance coverage of abortion in private insurance plans; 4 limit coverage to cases when the woman’s life is endangered; 1 limits coverage to life endangerment, rape and incest. Additional abortion coverage is permitted only through purchase of an additional rider and payment of an additional premium.
  • 12 states restrict abortion coverage in insurance plans for public employees.
    • 3 of the states provide abortion coverage only when the woman’s life is endangered.
    • 7 of the states, in addition to offering coverage to save the woman’s life, provide coverage to protect the woman’s health or in cases of rape, incest or fetal abnormality.
    • 2 of the states flatly prohibit any insurance coverage of abortion for public employees.

What this tells me is that you can’t just walk into a clinic, get an abortion, and expect your health insurance company to pick up the tab. It varies by state and insurance company. Not only that but it’s pretty restrictive. I just don’t think it’s fair to ask an insurance company to cover the bill for a mistake. Other than that, there are legitimate medical reasons for an abortion and no one (the government and/or insurance companies) should get in the way of allowing you and your doctor to make that sort of decision. Personally, I feel that no insurance company should pick up the tab except in cases when the mother and/or child’s life is at risk, severe abnormalities, or in cases of rape/incest. Those are highly legitimate reasons regardless of what side of the morality bench you’re on.

Whenever anyone asks me whether I’m pro-life or pro-choice, I say that I’m both. I’m pro-life in the fact that if you make a mistake then you should take responsibility. I’m also pro-life from the perspective that if you wait over three months to make up your mind to have an abortion then that is three months too late. However, I’m pro-choice in the fact that I believe that it should be every woman’s right to choice what happens to their body. No one should be forced into believing anything as far as what’s the moral right thing to do. As stated above, there are legitimate reasons for abortion. If my wife was to get raped tomorrow and got pregnant as a result you bet your ass I will allow her to have an abortion if she so chooses.

I guess my point is that while I have my own beliefs on the moral implications of abortion, I’m not too keen on stuffing those beliefs down other people’s throats.

]]> By: Christine http://www.steamd.net/2009/09/health-care-fiddle-sticks-and-ann-coulter-part-two.html/comment-page-1#comment-718 Christine Thu, 24 Sep 2009 01:36:22 +0000 http://www.steamd.net/?p=921#comment-718 Enjoyed reading this, thus far. Nice to see someone with some common sense! :o) Just one quick thing... most insurance companies cover abortions. As they should. God forbid an insurance company(who is regulated by state law) regulate morality. Pro-life or Pro-choice, abortions are a *legal* medical procedure in the US. And while this country provides for both sides of the argument, our government-sponsored healthcare should as reflect that as well. It really is unfortunate it's as difficult as it is to get an abortion in this country. Most unfortunate to those woman who live in poverty, and/or who are minorities, as they are the ones who don't often have the means or the know-how to get one. Enjoyed reading this, thus far. Nice to see someone with some common sense! :o ) Just one quick thing… most insurance companies cover abortions. As they should. God forbid an insurance company(who is regulated by state law) regulate morality. Pro-life or Pro-choice, abortions are a *legal* medical procedure in the US. And while this country provides for both sides of the argument, our government-sponsored healthcare should as reflect that as well. It really is unfortunate it’s as difficult as it is to get an abortion in this country. Most unfortunate to those woman who live in poverty, and/or who are minorities, as they are the ones who don’t often have the means or the know-how to get one.

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